Annabelle and Neal discuss in detail the recent "sexual harassment" allegations from Heather Markham aka Mama Creepy. We go over each allegation in detail exposing the dishonesty.
sexual harassment Download
Some of you may have seen Heather Markham's recent allegations against me for "sexual harassment". Most of you probably haven't. I understand bringing it up will bring attention to it, to people who may never see it. So why bring it up ? I just feel it is the right thing to do. Not only for my own name, but for others she involved without their consent. And, to expose what kind of person she really is. I have no way of knowing how many people she has contacted privately. I know of several, and surely there are more. She recently created a horror group (Raw Independent Horror) and has been adding WYH listeners and former guests. I can't keep track of everyone and everything, so I want the truth out there. I want to nip this in the bud before the poison spreads.
Annabelle contacted me, even though she had left WYH and wanted to stay away. She knew, no matter what differences we had, that this is blatantly untrue and Heather's "evidence" is completely taken out of context, manipulated and some just made up. She had the idea to do a podcast together going over every single point in Heather's statement against me and show the truth about each. I have dozens of full screen shots. Not things taken out of context with replies delibertly edited out. Hours of audio clips. Private messages to myself, WYH group chat and Annabelle. Even though we have our differences, Annabelle knows right is right. I thank her and appreciate her help on this.
This doesn't just potentially affect me, my name and the name of WYH. Heather also included Annabelle and Seth Hise in these allegations. Being part of false accusations could hurt their credibility, and more importantly it is just wrong to prey on the trust of others. It brings unwanted drama and stress into people's lives. It also can potentially damage the #metoo movement and a slap in the face to real victims of harassment. It is quite honestly a vile and shameful act. I won't just stick my head in the sand and ignore it, it needs to be exposed. - Neal Jones
Below are the screen captures and visual aids to see/read when mentioned on the podcast.
Heather's original statement including Annabelle Lecter and Seth Hise. (mentioned at 27:40)
Heather's actual comment about the Bad Dragon dildo talk, only mentioning sponsorship, nothing about being uncomfortable.
Audio - withoutyourhead.com/viewnews.php?autoid=109885
Outline of topics for the show, showing the segment was planned to go over before we went live.
Outline in the group chat between Heather, Jason, Troy and Neal.
Outline sent directly to Heather from Neal. Neither instances in group nor in private message is any concern brought up.
Lloyd Kaufman interview
Heather claims she only agreed to join if she was an equal partner with Neal. Here is the actual conversation.
Heather claims she was made uncomfortable over pics with the blow up goat. Here are various jokes and conversations about the goat, and about wanting Neal to bring it to conventions.
41-44 minutes and elsewhere
Heather wanting to name the year of the show after the goat.
Heather claims Neal sent pics of sex toys and they made her uncomfortable. Several of these pics she sent herself. Heather posted this picture in her original statement, but it was her herself who sent it to us in the group chat.
48:37 and 1:02:00
Bad Dragon sex toys. In her original statement she claimed to be uncomfortable over these sex toys pics. But, both Neal and Heather were sending the pics, show related topic of horror themed monster sex toys. We also discussed them in length on the podcast - withoutyourhead.com/viewnews.php?autoid=109885
Her original picture of "evidence", then the uncropped conversation showing she herself sent one of the pictures she is claiming Neal sent.
Heather on February 25th, weeks after she claimed these allegations is now tweeting and promoting Bad Dragon. The same exact company she was claiming to be sexually perverse and making her uncomfortable.
In Heather's original statement she brought up Neal sending a link to Stranger Things sex toys. She claims this made her feel uncomfortable and she claimed sexual harassment to Neal, and he took it as a joke. Here is what she posted on her Facebook. Following is the full conversation where she added "LMFAO" after the sexual harassment text.
Uncropped conversation. This was also for a topic on the podcast, since it was horror related. Link to Heather and Neal talking in depth about them on the podcast - withoutyourhead.com/viewnews.php?autoid=109885
Heather claims Neal took the sexual harassment texts as jokes. Various screen shots in both private messages, group chats and public posts of Neal and Heather's running joke of sexually harassing each other. Also many audio examples I will add later.
Public Facebook post:
Heather in her original statement Neal sent sexual pics in nothing but his underwear. It is not mentioned this was in a group chat with Jason Minton and Troy Jones as well. Her example used below is taken out of context without the chat before or after. She claims this made her uncomfortable yet her own graphic joke cropped out. Following is the entire conversation.
Heather's cropped "Evidence"
Again, Heather claiming Neal sent sexual pics of himself only in his underwear. Neal is wearing a shirt here as well. It was also sent in a group chat of 4 people, not mentioned in her statement. Below is the cropped photo she used as "evidence". Claiming she felt very uncomfortable. Leaving out that she replied with her own picture where you can not see any clothes only skin. Also includes references to the $5 picture jokes (1:11:00 - 1:12:00)
Heather's cropped picture:
Full picture in context
Heather making a sexual joke about wanting Neal's meat sauce in her mouth after Neal sends a photo of a home made lasagna.
Neal makes a jokes about Mrs Voorhees's head, Heather who claims to be uncomfortable and embarrassed all this time follows up with an even more graphic joke.
Heather sends Neal, Troy and Jason pics from a bathroom stall.
1:22:00 - Makes the reference she could make John Waters blush (1:23:50)
Heather uses a photo of woolies from WYH as some kind of evidence (of what I am not even sure). It is a public banner on the website, where Annabelle and Neal talked about the woolies fetish on the podcast (which Heather claims to have listened to for 5 years)
Neal sends a banner for their interview with Bill Weeden, Adrian Esposito, Michael Epstein and Lloyd Kaufman. Heather then makes a sexual joke about being with multiple men.
After making these allegations Heather took to twitter to seek help from Rose McGowan, yet just 2 months previous in the group chat she trashes Rose McGowan and claims the sexual harassment cases are with hunts.
Heather joking about Neal not wearing pants and herself not wearing anything.
Heather sending Neal a direct private message of a furry covered in dildos.
Heather joking about anally raping Jason Minton in Charlotte while they shared a room.
Heather telling Jason, Neal and Troy about naked photos that Debbie Rochon's photographer sent to her. When none of them reply, she persists on the joke.
This is important to me on a personal level, and I would really appreciate if you would read it.
Earlier this past month I’ve shared some personal experiences about my time with Without Your Head, cohost Neal Jones, and most recently Heather Markham (Mama Creepy) who herself was a cohost for a very brief period following my departure (which at the time I fully supported). To recap the most recent incidents leading up to right now, a few weeks ago after officially leaving Without Your Head I finally made a public post explaining that there are some personal differences which have grown over the years between me and my cohost and friend, Neal, that there was absolutely not one person to blame, that we were friends for 6 years and like many kinds of relationships, sometimes things just happen and people need to part ways. Up until then I had progressively chosen to distance myself until eventually I decided I would cut off interaction entirely for both of our wellbeing. Unfortunately due to some genuine misunderstandings about my intent there were some incredibly ugly dramatic scenes in public between Neal and myself following that post. One contributor who had privately supported me, and later publicly, was Heather Markham.
For the months prior I considered myself friends with both she and Neal. I would discuss their frustrations with each other concerning their time together on the podcast with confidentiality for each and hoped to get them to either confront one another directly or make the decision they had irreconcilable differences about how to manage the show and go their separate ways. Those problems by and large included Heather wanting to manage guest appearances and her wanting to change the content of the shows in order to get sponsorships. Back when I was with Neal doing the shows we had both agreed the fun of the show was the number one priority and if sponsorships would happen they would have to accept us as we were. Heather wanted to be more sponsor friendly - and as a business person that would make sense. But I stressed to each that this was something they needed to resolve because they both had different needs and both felt strongly. Heather’s primary complaint regarding sponsors was discussing silly topics like the Fleshlight series of monster themed dildos - which absolutely is crude but had been a topic on the show in the past during my time there along with other jokes about peculiar sexual interests such as woolies (a fetish for sweater material including full body costumes) and the Amazon published fantasy story series “Monsters Made Me Gay”. In my time on the show jokes were made enjoying the fun of those topics, not to be cruel, and not to stimulate - merely as topics to enjoy no differently than 10 year old kids would if they found out about things like this. It was all in good fun. People might not want to listen to it, people might decide this wasn’t the podcast for them, but we had our little niche audience who enjoyed us and that was what mattered for us, having fun and having an environment of friends not fans. Heather said she had been listening to the show for five years - I was on the show for all five years, we talked about these alternative things throughout that time as well as posted about them in our facebook group and even listed those as conversation points in the bulleted lists describing the content of individual shows on the website.
At no point during those conversation did Heather ever express to me any personal discomfort about these topics or any interactions with Neal or other persons affiliated with the show staff. She was open enough to tell me about her business related concerns for the show, about frustrations that Neal did not want her to book guests on her own without consulting him. I expressed my own frustrations with Neal to her, just talking together and venting as friends do - but throughout that the three of us all clarified that no one was against each other, just frustrations - that the good outweighed the bad. We each acknowledged positives and all agreed that the show was a good time. But within my seemingly heartfelt conversations with her I will repeat at no point during that time did she make mention that there was any discomfort personally of a sexual or otherwise intrusive or abusive nature.
Because this is already quite long, I’ll ask you to listen to recorded conversation between myself and Neal about everything that happened regarding the sexual harassment claims she falsely made against him. We discuss it all.
I have been extremely angry about Heather, and that is deserved. She deserves to be exposed as an opportunist and liar willing to sacrifice others and disregard the impact on bystanders and those she draws into her drama. But looking back over our conversations in private messages tonight has made me more sad than angry, but specifically about our friendship. There was a long time I felt Heather and I had a very positive relationship of mutual support. We shared a lot of personal things about ourselves and our lives. She was always very pleasant and I enjoyed when we did have conversation. It makes me feel so disappointed that she could take this harassment business with Neal as far as she has. And I believed her. Because who would ever lie about the things she was telling me? It started small - comments about him selling pictures privately to a fan (not true) as well as stories about his behavior at a horror convention (which she was not even present for as she had not been a member of the show at the time, and also not true). These exaggerations turned to accusations and in short time she was claiming she had been personally harassed with unwanted pictures and texts. And I believed her - not based on personal experience as Neal never so much as tried to hold my hand when we were friends during my time on the shows, but because who would lie about that kind of thing? She began to craft a campaign of #metoo against Neal and let me know she planned on contacting others and that she had “ironclad evidence”.
And I supported her, because, “who would lie about this?”.
The first hints something was amiss was when she released her personal statement which brought my name in as well as elements of the story she had been telling me. And when I saw she twisted what I had told her about my reasons for leaving the show as well as other aspects of the story she had told me, well at first I was angry but considered maybe she didn’t realize that what she did was not acceptable, to twist things to support her arguments. I privately messaged her my concerns. Later, she messaged me to say a new statement was up. Again, the reality, which should have been a very clear reality about why I left the show through my public statements and conversations, was turned. This time I announced my problem as a comment on her post. That made her incredibly angry. There was an argument about what was happening, I asked to be removed entirely. Again she wrote a statement, and not once through this did she ask me to proofread something she was inappropriately involving me in. This time she referred to a woman who used to be on the show. Well, there was only one other female host before her - me. I started becoming very concerned about the reality of anything she was saying about this matter at all. I asked to see her “ironclad evidence”. Cut and pasted conversations, and to look at they did seem inappropriate. It was implied that there was more, and without doubt it was meant to suggest it would be even more vulgar. I decided I didn't need to see anything beyond this because although she had done a poor job representing me in her statements, she did have some evidence. And,
“Who would lie about this?”
But after thinking about it, I got more and more uncomfortable. I absolutely did not want anyone thinking I had ever in any way contributed personal stories of Neal harassing me because no kind of harassment ever happened. This was wrong. And my name being involved could really hurt Neal. Whatever was between the two of them, I was not evidence against him. Right is right. So, I emailed Neal.
Click on image to see full size
After he and I started to communicate about this I learned that she had cut and pasted conversations of theirs to try to incriminate him. I was able to see this “evidence” was absolutely out of context. Why? Why do this to him?
She had always been so adamant about being a strong woman, someone who has not always had an easy life, someone who seemed genuinely affected by women’s issues, but who also raced to the side of Al Franken defending him because she believed he had been wrongfully accused. She seemed very fair. Could she be confused about all the joking between her Neal and other friends who were in these conversations? I regretfully have to say no - there have been absolute lies told. No confusion. I do not feel any empathy for this kind of lying - lies to harm or take advantage of others rather than to protect the self. I understand why someone would do it, but I cant imagine feeling that it was okay. Especially coming from someone who once seemed so nice. How could someone who says they take the issues of both real sexual harassment as well as the issue of people being wrongfully accused do something like this? How can she say she’s doing it so others will be strong if what she’s doing is founded on dishonesty? How can she approach others for support and manipulate them to believe her when it’s all fraud? I just cant wrap my head around that. And so part of me really does want to believe she has some kind of medical/emotional problem that got her into this. But even if that were true - even if - someone who behaves like this is dangerous to people who interact with her. She made a victim of someone who absolutely did not deserve it, and she could certainly do it again. And may have done it in the past. She wanted to have media coverage, and not in the horror community alone but also mainstream media including The Huffington Post, she wanted the support of professionals who rely on their public personas for their careers, people whose livelihoods hinge on their credibility. She was willing to let people go to war on her behalf without caring how that disrespected their trust and goodness as humans. These are not the choices of a safe person.
When she was messaging me privately on how she had iron clad proof and I found out that she was lying, I tried to hint to her to make sure it was absolutely infallible. More than once. She never budged. These are excerpts from what I said to her from one of our last conversations:
“Good luck Heather, you're really going to need it. More like a miracle.
More like an act of God making everyone who knows you're full of shit just die spontaneously.
I tried to help.
You've made your choices.
And you will live with the consequences.
“The reason I repeatedly say to be careful about all of this is because so many mistakes have been made I have been concerned that you really haven't done due diligence on most of this. It's like you're reaching out and grabbing at anything at all to try to support what you're claiming. As I said earlier, stick with what happened to you. If you have enough genuine experiences directly from him to you, then you'll be fine.”
And she went forward. And now she will not be fine.
Heather, if you are reading, I did try to support you. When I believed you, and even still when I saw the evidence against you. I didn't tell you what I was shown or that I knew you were lying in plain terms because it was up to you to realize what you were doing, that it was wrong, and then for you to do the right thing and come clean. I did not want fear that you could easily be proven false to influence the decision you would have to make. You made your decision as a human who did not care about what was right. And I am sorry for you. You have truly earned what is happening now.
- Annabelle Lecter
I think after seeing these screen shots alone anyone can see there was no sexual harassment. And, her claims of being uncomfortable are blatantly false. Please listen to the podcast for even more on this. And, there are audio samples if need be. Please share this and help expose this. The Metoo movement is important, and letting false accusations go on hurt it tremendously. These kind of actions can really discredit real victims, and bring doubt to all real issues.
I'm asking that if you have personal experiences with Heather being inappropriate with you to please share them in the comments here. This isn't an isolated incident, and it's important that people know that this didn't happen because she was "fired".
Joined: May 20 2017
Location: In front of the glowing screen
01:03, Feb 27 2018
I am the 4th member of the group conversation alongside then hosts of WYH (Neal, Troy & Heather). When I first heard Heather was claiming sexual harassment against Neal, I knew the two had never met so I expected her to post some private message or picture he’d sent her that was potentially inappropriate. The “proof” she posted was almost exclusively part of a group conversation between the four of us with a few things Neal had sent several people or posted publically on Facebook.
I have zero intentions of attacking anyone but I also won’t let an injustice stand that I know better than. If I ever felt anyone was sexually harassed as a part of Without Your Head I personally would have spoken up in their defense or left WYH before I would have taken part in it. Not once did Heather ever say in our group chat or to me privately that she felt uncomfortable or harassed by OUR sexually themed banter. If she had or if I’d thought that in any way then that banter would have stopped.
Out of the four of us at WYH and who were part of that group chat, the only one that I knew of who expressed their discomfort was me. I privately expressed my concerns to Neal about Heather. I expressed to Neal my concerns when I was supposed to share a room with Heather in Charlotte after she went on about sleeping naked in the same room with me.
I also expressed my concerns directly to Heather after she offered to sell me nude photographs of herself, which I thought was a joke at the time and tried to laugh off even though she did make me uncomfortable. Then she sent the semi-nude photographs of herself, slightly worse than some pictures she has posted on Facebook after I specifically asked her not to.
I also told Neal of my concerns of her unprofessionalism with some of the male guests. This was just my opinion. Everything was on air and is available for everyone to listen to and make their own mind up about it.
Up to this point I’ve largely stayed out of this publicly. Neal has been respectful enough to leave my name out of it except when private messages were required to be read. Everything I’ve said here is documented through text, dated long before Heather made any accusations about Neal.
In the three months Heather was part of the show I got to know her somewhat through messaging. Though I personally felt uncomfortable at times I never felt harassed. I never saw or heard anyone else in our group chat, private chats or on air say or even elude to the fact that they were uncomfortable or felt harassed. I was completely surprised by all of these claims.
I have no personal vendetta against Heather. We had many private chats about our personal lives and were friendly if not friends. I also can’t say nothing while claims are made where the only “evidence” is something I was apart of and I know is distorted and false. If you know Neal, he likes to push buttons but would never legitimately harass anyone. His humor like mine, revolves in the gutter. I also would not defend the man if I thought he had harassed someone. If Heather had evidence where she was legitimately harassed I wouldn’t be making this statement in Neal’s defense.
I was there in the hot tub in Kentucky long before Heather joined the show. I took the pictures of the Goat, MY GOAT, which I brought as a joke towards Neal’s wrestling co-host who is known as the “Powergoat”. The pictures that were supposedly sold, were also taken by me and if Neal had been naked in any of them I wouldn’t have been in the same room with him. All of this was done for humor between friends and the only way Heather was involved was when this was talked about as a topic of entertaining storytelling for the show. I took part in the same group conversation her “evidence” came from and got all the same photos she posted as “evidence” against Neal. All of which was also topics of conversation on their weekly podcast and largely talked about publicly on Facebook.
As someone who was the third person in almost all of this I have to say I saw Neal Jones do absolutely nothing that wasn’t reciprocated. I’ve failed to see any real evidence of harassment come from Heather and anyone who listens to the show every week would have to agree.
Not everyone is good at Watching Movies Without Your Head.